No Bull Marketing Ideacast | Season 2 Episode 6

No Bull Marketing Ideacast | Season 2 Episode 6

Online Dating and Business Behavior \

It's a Ghost Town

Jules Meadwell

Good brains, online dating, and the normalization of Bad Behavior.

Jules Meadwell, formerly Global Talent Acquisition Strategist at Saatchi & Saatchi, and founder of Good Brains for Good Brands, spills the beans on online dating, and how things that would have horrified us only a few years ago, are becoming commonplace in the world of work. 

Guest: Jules Meadwell, Head of Talent Acquisition, MSC Saatchi Group

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Transcript

PRE-INTRO:

Jules Meadwell: You might even actually have a very valuable and interesting exchange, the start of a beautiful something and it would just evaporate. People e-mail and they instant message and I think that shield that invisible distance makes it much easier to cut ties.

INTRO:

Becky Holland: Hello, and welcome to the No Bull Marketing Ideacast. I’m Becky Holland.

For those of you that don't know, ghosting is the practise of ending a relationship by suddenly and without explanation withdrawing from all communication. Breadcrumbing on the other hand, and this is a new term for me, although the sentiment definitely resonates, is the act sending flirtatious but non-committal social signals in order to lure you in without expending too much effort. I think we all know someone that does that…

Online dating and social media have made ghosting and breadcrumbing much easier, common in fact. There’s actually a recent study by match.com that showed that people had ghosted 29% of those they dated and a whopping 74% said that ghosting was an appropriate way to end a relationship, go figure. It’s pretty tough if you're looking for a romantic partner, baffling in the extreme when you're trying to build a business relationship.

My guest today Jules Meadwell is UK Head of Talent Acquisition at M&C Saatchi. I met Jules more than 10 years ago. She popped up on LinkedIn about a year ago, with a message that I could very strongly relate to.

JM: Dating sucks. I've been strung along stood up, lied to, [and] I’m just finalising why divorce equals totally married with no intention of leaving and abandoned. ‘I'm just popping to the loo!’ … and he never returned. I've also been ghosted a sudden and inexplicable end to all communications even when it seems to be going well. Depressingly, I have noticed this has crept insidiously into my professional world as well. Emails go unanswered, calls, voicemails dodged or ignored.

Eventually, I get the hint and give up, but this is not okay! I've been over in my mind trying to empathise and find reason for it and I just can't get there, it is disrespectful. It's totally fine if you chose another company to work with or the project is no longer happening. A quick note is all it takes and everyone can get on with their lives, just let the people know where they stand.

BH: So where does all bad business behaviour come from? How should we deal with it? What's a direct impact on marketing? Today's episode is about talent, It's about online dating, it's about the normalisation of bad behaviour and we'll just dive a little bit deeper into what we need to do to attract and keep really good talent in marketing functions, business and agencies in 2022 and beyond.

DISCUSSION:

BH: So, welcome to the No Bull Marketing Ideacast, would you like to introduce yourself?  

JM: Thanks Becky. I'm Jules and I'm Head of Talent Acquisition for M&C Saatchi group.

BH: Very good, so, just [to] give a little bit of a background to everybody that's listening, you and I met donkeys years ago but reconnected over a LinkedIn post about a year ago and we recorded a podcast which, because of my extreme ineptitude didn't get published until you’d moved on and done different things. So, here we are again and we're going to do take #2.

JM: Absolutely, delighted.

BH: I can't remember exactly when it was but about a year ago-ish there was a LinkedIn post that popped up that that piqued my interest, do you remember exactly what you wrote?

JM: I don’t exactly actually know I was definitely I do remember though writing it and very much feeling the pain of ghosting in a professional capacity and depressing as it is to articulate but I have also been ghosted in my personal life when you know dating, et cetera.

So, I was immediately aware of what it was and what it was happening is where people just stop replying to your emails and your attempts to contact them through LinkedIn or whatever and it was absolutely baffling to me that we could be in professional situations and this was a behaviour that was happening and not just in isolation but it felt very prevalent and it's a sad fact that I think it's very kind of common in the dating world that people sort of go on dates and then expect never to hear again from [you].

So, it's miracle if someone says ‘hey thanks but no’ you know I didn't feel it was quite working out that's you know delightful but very rare and usually it's just a sort of silence that followed but maybe I speak too much for myself but a silence that follows. And then to experience that same thing in a professional context was just extraordinary to me where you might even actually have a very valuable and interesting exchange over e-mail or over zoom because it is obviously very easy to do that now.

So, it didn't take a huge time thing which maybe changes things again that this sort of cost of it didn't feel very high and then you just never hear again and you thought I might am I misreading situations to the extent that I think oh we've had a wonderful conversation, there's a good contact I've made and you know. I'll follow up over e-mail and potentially you know this could come from thinking - I might use that thinking, this could be a new business opportunity or this could be a new hire and there‘s lots different reasons [like] the context of the conversation and yet it felt very again as I say across all disciplines and the reason for dialogue wasn't just about stonewalling new business which I can appreciate - people are bombarded now right?

They get lots and lots of LinkedIn ‘Hey I'm not selling you anything but I was telling you something’. 

And I'm not talking about that cause that I feel like sadly is also true people just ignore those they go into spam they disappear, they just delete delete delete cause there's such high volume it's like the old direct mail through your letterbox you just put [it] in the recycling and never [look again].

BH: It’s just the GDPR compliant way of spamming you.

JM: Exactly exactly. But when there’s been dialogue that's what I found so confusing that we had exchanged, we had communicated more than once and as I say often, had really great conversations that I thought were the start of a beautiful something and it would just evaporate and - you know there's polite follow-ups and then there's sort of confused follow up and then ultimately you some right get the hint but this is bizarre that you don't understand that the fallout of that that also there may come a time where the shoe is on the other foot and I need you need me - I mean I don't know when that might happen - but you know when does it but when did it become okay I think is the real question to have gone through an interaction of some degree to then feel like I'm just never going to – never going back to that.

[INTERLUDE]

BH: The thing that I don't get I suppose I can really see the commonalities between online dating and business development. Like you, I've had a bit of experience of both and in both scenarios there's you know good eggs and bad eggs so just so to speak and it's quite hard because you don't really know people [and] you're interacting and you’re having dialogue with them but you have no idea what's happening in the other 99% of their type.

So, I sort of get that the challenge that I’m facing is that not everybody has done online dating so – and I don't think all other people that are behaving badly have been on dating sites from - maybe they have but - so where is this behaviour coming from? When did this become okay? Do you think it's to do with just I guess social media and the disposable nature of everything and online dating is a microcosm of it? Cause I'm not I'm not sure it can be the cause of it cause it's only small proof to people that have done it.

JM: Yes, completely agree I don't think it's the cause. I think it's actually this sense that with - I'm going to say e-mail in a way more than more than social media there became this ability to hide behind and people got very quickly into the preference of emailing over phoning.

I remember the days when it was all on the phone and the desk phone and you’d pick it up and you know pre-LinkedIn would be phoning reception desks and trying to find out who was who in different companies and such.

So, yeah people were on their phones so much more than they are now. I think people e-mail and they instant message much more readily than they pick up the phone and I think that shield that sort of invisible distance makes it much easier to cut ties. You're hiding, you’re hiding behind a screen and an online keyboard stuff that makes it just feel not you. And it's interesting you talk about this sort of bad behaviour cause actually I think there's something about the ghosting mechanic that is slightly not bad but I'm just I'm not even doing anything. Whereas bad behaviour might be to say f-off know you like ‘I don't want anything to do with you’ [laughs].

[And] then you know its closure its clear very much you know I hate what you're doing I don't like your behaviour et cetera. Like, okay great blow up have a big row that's cleaner in a way.

BH: A few years ago, I remember somebody saying to me actually ‘never say never say maybe when you mean yes or no’. At that time, I thought that's brilliant advice [but] actually I think ‘never say nothing when you mean yes or no is that it’s even more relevant to the time. Like, do people even bother to say maybe anymore?

JM: Exactly - and maybe people hedge their bets as well they sort of think ‘well I don't know’ and [then] while I don't know while maybe it is a maybe I'm going to do nothing in the hope that an answer becomes clearer.

You know I did hear a song lyric or a song on the radio which says I'm not ghosting you I'm just going through something right now. And of course, yes like you said earlier there is context of course. So, you know, people have stuff happen da-da-da it's just that you know within the confines of a professional engagement or a professional situation there is a level of expectation there.

So, I feel like personally in the dating world or otherwise somebody drops off the radar yeah sure it tells me there may be something going on but professionally it feels like that's not that's not the sort you need a bit more you need a bit more to say well what is happening cause otherwise I am left hanging and then of course it does get cripplingly awkward if you're trying to come back from that.

BH: I wonder whether you know I think maybe both in business and in the dating scenario people are much more about keeping their options open these days.

JM: 100%.

BH: I mean if you use a mirror example think about in marketing for example, I want to buy an online tool that will help me do lead generation for the sake of argument. There [are] probably 500 different tools out there that you could choose.

So, just because somebody phones you up or sends you a LinkedIn inmail or you have a meeting or a conversation with somebody and you quite like them doesn't mean you necessarily [have to] go because you got this phone now you've got like 99 other tools out there and if I sign up to this one - because I quite like this person and it feels like it's quite good ‘oh what about all the other ones?’. And I kinda feel it's the same with clients and agencies and also to a certain extent with online dating and I don't know – it's probably too much personal information on going on the podcast here.

But you know I tried very hard to only talk to one person at a time [but] the problem is other people are all talking to lots and lots of people at the same time and you're waiting for them to then reply. They have probably got ten other people they need to speak to you before they get to you. Well, I should do the same maybe I need to talk to lots of people at the same time and that way then I am not sitting here waiting like some weird desperate person.

JM: Yes thanks...inaudible.. for every message.

BH: But then it just multiplies the problem because then everyone’s doing it.

JM: Yes, that is almost a problem within the recruitment landscape as well, that there is this sort of approach to certain vacancies that is this never-ending tap and I'll just wait and see who else you might have had three really brilliant candidates come through for interview, spread out let's imagine and then it’s just like ‘Oh I just would like to see a couple more you know just a couple more - just a couple more’. If you keep doing that the only ones that you met can disappear cause they've got a job to you know secure and a life to live and a career to get on with.

And then meanwhile that sense of oh I can't keep I got to get I've kept them waiting so long they've gone or they’re still waiting but they’re losing interest and then you've got this idea of maybe around the corner is another and another and another - just you have to put a parameter in place to say I'm going to look now and then I'm going to not look and I've heard people do that successfully with their dating life and they’re like ‘I'm in the market - for a wife! I'm going to go wife hunting and then I'm going to finish my wife-hunting and find a way.

[INTERLUDE]

BH: In some scenarios arguably if you're choosing a husband or wife or you know your new business partner you know you probably need the person that's as close to perfect as you can get.

In other scenarios when I don't really think you need somebody to manage your Google Ads I'm sorry to all the Google Ads people It's not that you don't need perfect Google Ads person but there are lots of people that can do that very competently that actually would fit into your culture they are probably young and keen and hungry.

So, don't spend six months trying to find somebody for that role because there's lots of people there I mean we've - I'm just thinking personally in terms of talent a few years ago when I was trying to hire a group account director first person I interviewed fabulous lady she was wonderful and I was like ‘oh one person I'm going to go through the process’ and spent three to four weeks phone dropped, offered her the job and she was gone. She was head of sales enablement at Cannon she's had this stellar career and I've tried to power up since she's far too expensive, I can never afford her, I totally missed out.

And we learn from that and then when we were hiring an SEO exec right at the beginning of this year - first person we introduced he was amazing, offered him the job he's still amazing he's here. I have no idea who else was like that it really doesn't it really doesn't matter he's brilliant.

JM: Yeah and that and that I think that is a really bold and confident way to recruit. This people very understandably fear making a decision in a vacuum and they’re like ‘Oh I want a comparison’. And then of course you’re creating this sort of weird false picture because you're drawing a comparison between two or more individuals who have no relation really to each other and you’re like ‘oh one is better than the other’ - according to what?

And of course, this then this is in the framework that you're creating but actually if you've met someone you like who you think could do the job, what else are you really recruiting for because in many ways people do - and again I say this knowing that of course there are circumstances where this is the right thing. You know you aren't looking for a husband or a wife you are just looking for someone to spend some time in their life with you and their business that you are working for or your own business if you're an owner manager.

It's that sort of sense of this person needs to be with me you know they’re such a critical long-term partner for the business. Actually, the talent market moves all the time you would get two years out of this person, particularly at different levels you are expecting you know what are you really expecting and this comes back to maybe even the dating thing that actually when it all starts feeling a bit too hard work, you know, if building a relationship feels just a bit ‘uh’, you know that really puts people off and therefore they’re like or where the banter is so high and you’re like this is exhausting. I need to be witty and sparkly the whole time I can't keep this up you know that's again another level of exhaustion that makes people ‘ah let’s stop now’ [laughs].

BH: What would you say we should do in this scenario do you think we just go with it we just accept it and I'm coming back to when we were talking about this whole kind of ghosting that you obviously can't make people reply to the to you if they if they choose not to there's nothing you can do about it. Well, you know, give me kind of some examples or how you deal with this in your day-to-day job.

JM: Expecting it is one thing and also to perhaps not take it personally and understand exactly that sense that this tells me there's something else going on or you know we're not aligned in that buying to selling, selling to buying you know, dynamic and to just appreciate that for what it is rather than the - they hate me!

And I think for me it’s then about making sure that I am trying to live up to my own standards so with a sense and I've actually received a few of these myself from sales people where they politely say ‘this is obviously not the right time - I'm not going to contact you again for a period of time’ or whatever and they sort of elegantly just stop which is nice to feel like they've said look this is the third one I've sent you and this is very salesy so these are sales emails trying to sell me software or something that I don't need your they've misread my job title and think I'm doing something else you know it's like yes this is the third e-mail not going to talk to you.

But then there's cold emails they’re slightly different and I think the lesson though I tried to apply and will be failing at this so appreciate anyone who's listening that thinks ‘she doesn't do that!’ - is about saying or we've replied so we've done the end we've closed it or I've closed it so even if again there is something happening or you want to come back to the conversation later either that door is a crack open or it's firmly closed. But we all know where we stand it's that closure piece that I think is so absent when somebody goes to that you're just like ‘but why? what does that mean? and I don't know’ you know to just make that very clear. 

So, in a recruitment context it's about closing down the opportunity so ‘oh that's filled or that jobs gone or you weren't successful’ whatever it is. So, in those circles even if the person has never replied to a single one of our invitations to interview or follow up calls or anything like that is to say at the end of the day that there you go its over but please do you know keep us on the website you know check our website et cetera, et cetera. So, it's about yeah holding myself and you know M&C Saatchi [to] the same standard to say well we will communicate with everybody eventually, we will try.

I mean I think the challenge I face in this set-up now is more about managing what can sometimes feel like an automatic reply cause it is an automatic reply but warning it to sound authentic and genuine because we do want individuals to feel like they've had an individual message, even though at the volume we’re talking about that's physically impossible so we use automatic e-mail replies. And I just think it's about trying to get the cadence of that and or the tone correct that feels like yeah no we we have read your application cause we do we read them all you know we go through them all. We can't give you feedback but we're really sorry just in this occasion it hasn't worked out so that people have that sense of okay cool thanks you know I can now move on in life.

[INTERLUDE]

BH: So, tell me a little bit about your role currently in M&C Saatchi cause obviously there's a lot of stuff in the media about kind of the great talent reshuffle the great resignation all this sort of stuff. People moving around and certainly we felt I mean we've heard some amazing people over the last year but it's been quite hard to find them and we've had some Mrs as well. So just tell me a little bit I guess about what you're finding at at the moment cause you're fairly new to this role aren't you?

JM: I am three months in.

BH: Congratulations!

JM: Thanks very much! And actually it was a newly created position to head up talent acquisition across the group so M&C Saatchi group holds a number of different businesses and I'm overseeing how we look at recruitment across all of those different businesses and helping them create sort of the best in class sitting as a centre of excellence for talent acquisition to ensure that actually our candidate journey is really strong and as good as it can be whilst also making sure that our assessment methods are the right ones that suit each business according to what they’re looking for and understanding exactly the war on talent and what we need to be doing as much as also some sort of systematic operational improvements and [stuff] like that.

So, there‘s a number of different things going on which is very exciting and all designed for I guess the business transformation you know, the business like many others is nothing without its people so the people function is of great importance to the business and its success. You know and recruitment plays a very critical part in that and it's not just sort of these straight forward vacancies that absolutely do form a large chunk of recruitment but it's also all the employer brand the external messaging that speaks to why candidates should consider let alone apply you know we want to create more of that, as much as also what their onboarding and success looks like inside the business to make sure that again we are authentic in our representation of opportunity and that makes sense for people.

BH: Yes.

JM: I think what is most sort of interesting in a post pandemic world is that the you know immediate reaction we've had to sort of change the flexible working model that used to exist with formal requests to HR just change your hours and such like that and of course those do still exists and that is still a need for many, it's the remote working aspect or the hybrid that's been incredibly sort of refreshing to be both a recipient of and a sort of eyes on which is a minimum two in the office and all of that stuff very much reflecting the need for the talent market to have more control over where and how they work. And I think that this whole drive is a lot to do with empowering a generation or a generation who feels empowered to influence how they work and where they work and in what capacity they are used in businesses.

However I do feel there's some sort of flipside of this which is a big challenge to do with how you actually then engage people to be present in the office physically because as we all know when you are together it's a very different type of output that comes than when you are sitting in isolation or on zooms and in team zooms but it is different and potentially as I say the output is also likely to be different when you are brought together physically and there’s all the other sort of extra stuff which I was talking about this at the weekend so this feels very tightly but I feel like a bit of an old woman now because I’m like it's this generation that aren't going to get that same sense of popping to the pub on a Thursday - anyone around nice day sun's out should we nip off and everyone's a bit hungover on the Friday and you know going around getting your bacon sandwiches you know that is very hard to craft right - that is pure spontaneity and [its] really difficult to do you can't - and that's the sort of you know an ingredient of the secret source of culture. It's an ingredient and it's not the only one absolutely.

BH: It is a part of it. You know the amount of time we’ve spent in The Crown and Two and the dog and duck and all the rest of it you know there's something special about that.

JM: Completely. Completely.

BH: So, I was out in Soho last weekend and it was very busy so there clearly a lot of people that are still doing it without question but the bit that they will miss like you said it's the bacon sandwiches the next day. Because they’ll just work from home the next day.

JM: Exactly. Exactly. They'll be hungover and they’ll want to stay at home which is understandable of course but yet nothing will beat the ‘I’m just going to go lie down in the meeting room - is there a spare one!’ you know ‘I've got a terrible headache’.

BH: Or finding creative teams asleep on the sofas in the morning.

JM: Exactly! Yeah! And just like you know I've got memories of myself sitting working in sunglasses cause it was just too bright besides I had such a bad hangover.

[INTERLUDE]

BH: Goodness only knows how they’ll relate to people if they are at home forever more but, you know that will suit some people.

JM: Well absolutely and that I think is a really lovely kind of new phase of people management for want of a better umbrella phase because I think what we're seeing more and more is a sense of individuality and difference and diversity that is so refreshing but does need therefore different paths, different opportunities that cannot be just well it's this ladder or nothing and that doesn't really allow for those that may require a different type of work, different style of work and as you say potentially not having to manage people or whatever it might be so it really allows people to shine.

[INTERLUDE]

JM: [A] bit of a tangent apologies my niece she just turned 16 and she was telling me that you know everyone in her peer group were all obsessed with what's your style what's your style what do you what's your look what's your look and she was like I don't I don't really know yet you know I'm 16 or 15 I don’t know.

BH: School uniform!

JM: I know, well I’m just trying to experiment. I think it's really interesting that there’s this need to define right this very need to label and say oh this is it this is that I am this I am that and actually people rightly so that makes people feel a bit nervous but uncomfortable to commit 100% to ‘I am this I do that’ and actually I think to just say well today I do this you know like there’s possibility of change and the only thing we know that the most certain thing in life is change - is uncertainty.

So, you know it's like well just go with today and like the short term, yeah of course people have a long-term vision and that is admirable, I don't. So, you know yes if you've got the ultimate goal of you know CEO of XYZ brilliant go for it please go for it.

BH: But also accept change though if you even if you have the ultimate goal of being CEO of Pfizer or whatever it is accept that on the journey you may experience something that may change your mind don't be fixed on that.

JM: Totally, exactly its rigidity again I think it can be quite restrictive and perhaps not the route to happiness to put it in a reversed [way].

BH: We were talking at the beginning weren’t we about online dating but actually think maybe it's more just about social media and these kind of online identities Instagram generation you can go ‘ok this is me this is what I look like this is what I do this is what I like’ and you create this persona and then you feel this sort of need to live up to that persona.

JM: Yes, I completely agree! And [its] your personal brand you've set your stall up haven't you you said ‘this is me’ and it's like ‘actually I want to change now’.

BH: “I want to change now, I want to be somebody else now!”. My personal brand on LinkedIn is quite good cause it reflects what I do in my professional life. If you look at my Instagram, I'm feel free it's is a complete mess cause it's just got stuff with my kids it's got me paddleboarding it has me at rewind festival has a lot of food pictures it has my podcasts on there. If somebody was to look at it I mean I don't know what - they would probably think I just have a very busy life which I guess is true – but you know there is this whole notion you’re supposed to live your personal brand and its supposed to be one thing but life isn't like that.

JM: No, and humans are so much richer than a sort of brand guidelines right like – [there is] so much more to you.

BH: I couldn’t imagine what my brand guidelines would be! [laughs].

[INTERLUDE]

BH: Coming back to your thinking about you know hiring people and the interview process going on that ever actually in the interview process you only ever see that the best the best bits best thing if you like somebody and you think they are fit that they can do the role is hire them and let them give it a go that's what you know employment laws are for that's what probation periods are for give them give them a whirl and I think [it's] probably the same you know in the online dating world, if they seem like they’re someone fun you can get along with you can only give him a chance!

JM: I mean I think that's I think so I think so I mean I think what I would say to that is about making sure you have a robust enough recruitment process that enables you to feel confident in the higher and that is going to come down to whether you think they can do the job yes.

And I think the other stuff and versus the stuff that you know you can teach them right so there is huge piece around attitudes and behaviours as much as skills and competency but understanding you've got it probably or bore them anyway and how your business works.

Therefore, you can teach them aspect of the job - yeah there are rules about 80-20 stuff you've got to make sure you're asking the right questions that allow you to confidently hold your hands up to say yeah this person could do the job I think they could do the job.

And then the other stuff is a bit more to do with whether they align to your values as a business and whether they feel like they would add value to your culture environment and feeling like yeah this person doesn't need to be my best friend they don't need to be my husband, my wife, my life partner they just need to come in and do some great work and maybe challenges a bit, maybe teach you something you and ultimately you know fulfil the requirements that this job is which will involve absolute alignment to the vision of the business and direct them and travel all those sorts of things. And then just go for it yeah, hire them give them their time, give them your attention and then knowing then if you if you've got that you got it wrong you know call it early have a conversation early keep the dialogue open but make sure I think the robust processes is sufficient for you to then be able to say no, forget the jobs take it back to skill always take it back to skill you know, what is the job really asking and then what am I really asking because it's that point about saying, oh I want this person to be here you know with us forever well it's a very different ask than if you want them for two years and then know that they will leave then you can hire based on that sort of stuff.

BH: So, any sort of last words of wisdom or thoughts around robust recruitment processes or things people should like cause this is this is [a] lovely chat but I want to make sure I’m giving people something really useful in terms of a takeout.

JM: Not sure, oh dear [laughs], Anything useful no I don’t , well I think I mean yeah I think if I'm trying to give some top tips I would say before you talk to anyone as a recruiter if you are thinking I'm hiring managers - I have a vacancy in my team this is what I'm thinking I need, spend enough time drilling into the job itself because it's so easy particularly if you're hiring for your team to put in assumed knowledge and completely unconsciously you'll just come in and be like ‘oh you just need to manage the Bla Bla-Bla'. So, what is that? Like, what is that? - you know go back a level peel it back another level what do you mean and what does that look like in a skill actually articulating the very nugget of what it means to then allow you to perhaps again broaden out where you're getting your talent from because you can say that's transferable skill that is the same skill dressed in different clothes.

So, you just need to teach them our clothes - weird metaphor don't know if that works you know - that's the bit you teach that's the onboarding piece that's the bits that you know fits together but you before you talk anyone get clear and then you can be much more incisive in your questioning and then to know what you're looking for otherwise it just becomes a nice chat that teaches you a little bit about somebody and a little bit is hard to make a decision on.

BH: I just a had a little ‘ah-ha’ moment, most recruitment briefs, and I'm guilty of this as well, tend to be shopping lists you know where you just do it longer but actually it feels to me based on what you're saying how much - I can't really believe I haven't thought about that - it's much more like writing a creative brief where you’ve got to get the proposition right you just need that one line that says this is what this is the nub of the thing, this is what we want and if you can do this thing then it's worth taking the conversation further but get that one thing right get the - and everything else will follow.

JM: Absolutely, and in a way it's sort of like what's the purpose of the job you know what is this job designed to do kind of that which ties into the team's mission which is then the company's mission you know once you get that it's like ‘why are we all here? what we all doing?’ you know you've got to be able to line that up and then you can speak to people.

[INTERLUDE]

BH: So, when we started all this about the online dating, have you been more successful in your online dating since we last spoke?

JM: [laughs] Absolutely not. But my son is nearly three so I'm very busy - looking after a very classic nearly three-year old. He is like textbook toddler, so no I have not paid any more attention to any apps on online dating apps for the time being but you know you know maybe one day I'll get there.

Unfortunately, I think it will be my eternal problem is it's not a priority - so again ready to buy ready to sell not ready to buy so [laughs].

BH: Thank you have a wonderful day!

JM: Thanks so much Becky. What fun! What fun! 

OUTRO:

BH: That’s it for another episode. thank you so much for listening I am going to be back in a couple of weeks with another episode. This time we're going to be talking about the future of digital advertising, a cookie-less future and what we need to do. Google has moved back the date for the deprecation of third-party cookies but should we rest on our laurels for a couple of years? Or we should do something now. My guest next time will tell you all.